tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post2127246834888190087..comments2024-01-24T14:53:02.919+00:00Comments on Stephen Colebourne's blog: Is the JCP dead?Stephen Colebournehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01454237967846880639noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-43703531296085498102010-12-16T20:16:19.000+00:002010-12-16T20:16:19.000+00:00oh! yes.. and we already hav an alternative vm htt...oh! yes.. and we already hav an alternative vm http://llvm.org/Pradeep Jindalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-57508287046585583402010-12-16T19:44:08.000+00:002010-12-16T19:44:08.000+00:00ok, so finally the day came.
1.
Hey ASF, it is ti...ok, so finally the day came.<br /><br />1.<br />Hey ASF, it is time to create our own specs of a new vm and language and divert all resource to it of cource stop further java based dev also.<br /><br />2.<br />a new license - this new license should be "paid for paid and free for free" model.<br />means if source code or binary is included in a commercial (revenue generated) then the company has to pay to ASF otherwise if it is used by enduser or nonprofit purpose it is free.<br />so as to avid taken for granted by mnc and also ask for fair share of revenue to keep all free coders and best minds/ solutions keep living their dreams.<br /><br />Thanks<br />Pradeep JindalPradeep Jindalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-49991562249416854402010-12-16T05:53:06.000+00:002010-12-16T05:53:06.000+00:00@Julian, what did offer prison guards to get acces...@Julian, what did offer prison guards to get access to the Internet in Wandsworth ?;-)Werner Keilhttp://www.catmedia.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-39221294039490524532010-12-16T05:51:12.000+00:002010-12-16T05:51:12.000+00:00Stephen,
As many, not just yourself seem to feel u...Stephen,<br />As many, not just yourself seem to feel uncomfortable with the "Umbrella" or "Distribution" JSRs for SE 7 and beyond (I don't think ME was immune to that either, it's just not there to discuss any Next Generation yet, although news of SE6 for Embedded are arising these days)<br /><br />At least following a working Modularization for Java (so maybe for SE7 we might have to live with that compromise or "zombie" as referred to here) couldn't a system that works perfectly well on top of Linux be found? Having commercial vendors, not just Oracle itself bundle "Distributions" which then the JCP may not need to worry about any more...?<br /><br />Linux neither has a problem with Oracle's "Unbreakable Linux" nor those parts Android or LiMo derived from it, as long as those distributions don't violate the GPL, which all of OpenJDK is also lisensed under.<br /><br />Is that idea too foolish or as Martin Fowler told us this week during a speech out of a "Fantasy World" ?<br />(he referred to a "Java Toaster" people claiming to know and fully understand the JSPA say wasn't even possible under its current form and FOU Restrictions ;-)Werner Keilhttp://www.catmedia.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-3652131824952395782010-12-14T11:49:18.000+00:002010-12-14T11:49:18.000+00:00Yes, the conspiracy theory is that IBM didn't ...Yes, the conspiracy theory is that IBM didn't want to pay the licensing for the Java SE TCK and hid behind a not-for-profit foundation to do so.<br /><br />People who wanted a 'free' solution on platforms not supported by Sun already had a working solution in the form of Kaffe, Cacao, GCJ, JamVM and other users of GNU Classpath.Javanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-80308922713887043352010-12-12T11:35:59.000+00:002010-12-12T11:35:59.000+00:00Hi Stephen,
as far as I know Scala isn't your...Hi Stephen,<br /><br />as far as I know Scala isn't your preferred language, but maybe this looks like an interesting way of Date&Time going forward: https://github.com/soc88/scala-datetime ?<br /><br />At the moment the project is more about fun and pushing IntelliJ's Java-to-Scala conversion to its limits and it doesn't even compile yet (because I didn't dare to touch all the "rule magic" yet), but the translation from Java to Scala was pretty easy in many cases as most of the Date&Time classes do already have a "Scala-like" design.<br /><br />Refactoring with IntelliJ's Scala plugin worked rather well, but the Java-to-Scala conversion still doesn't preserve the order of methods/fields/classes (very bad!).<br /><br />Let me know what you think (if you want)!<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Bye,<br /><br />SimonSimonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-46112944053762254922010-12-12T11:11:32.000+00:002010-12-12T11:11:32.000+00:00There is a "response" from Oracle. IMHO ...There is a "response" from Oracle. IMHO that response is a shame<br /><br />http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/<br /><br />The content is a shame. Ståhl acting as a mouthpiece is a shame. Messinger (and Deutsch) not talking directly to the community, but using a mouthpiece is a shame. Not allowing comments in that blog is a shame.<br /><br />It clearly shows what Oracle is about. Some vice presidents fart in our general direction and we should say "hmmm, smells like roses".<br /><br />BTW, I also think Sun acted in bad faith for a long time. The JSPA and SCA were designed to keep the normal developer out and to allow the big boys to play their game. Regularly Sun claimed they "will look into it" and "simplify them". Sun never did. The JCP deliberately excluded and excludes the community. Somewhere on java.net, in a discussion about a JCP reform, a JCP bigwig even admitted that they don't want to hear from every Tom, Dick and Harry.Frank Kottenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-27617009835516034182010-12-11T18:42:39.000+00:002010-12-11T18:42:39.000+00:00@Steve, I'll be commenting on JSR-310 soon.
@...@Steve, I'll be commenting on JSR-310 soon.<br /><br />@Ben, My point is that there is a difference between it being in IBMs interests to support Harmony, and it being a deliberate strategy to use and abuse Apache to wrest control of Java. You might think that distinction is subtle, but IMO it is there. And finally, your suggestion is tangental to the core issue discussed in this blog (relevent, but tangental). After all, the JSPA does allow for an Apache licensed version of Java SE.Stephen Colebournenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-38042949900117375072010-12-11T14:09:16.000+00:002010-12-11T14:09:16.000+00:00Calling it a conspiracy theory is a poor logical a...Calling it a conspiracy theory is a poor logical argument. If it were not in IBM's best interests to pay people to work on harmony, why would they do it? <br /><br />Of course it was in their best interests:<br /><br />1) IBM bet big on Java - all their software is Java based.<br /><br />2) IBM were considering BUYING Sun, and it was stated that it was primarily to get Java.<br /><br />3) IBM paid employees to work on a JVM independent of Sun's after it was "clear" Sun would license the TCK.<br /><br />4) IBM contributed all the code it legally could (that wasn't tainted by licensing with Sun) to Harmony<br /><br />5) IBM is paying Sun for TCK of J9 and Jikes.<br /><br />6) IBM has a history of using open source as a weapon in business: eclipse.<br /><br />Any business worth their salt would conclude that funding an open-licensed JVM would be in their best interest. Of course it was: They bet their business on it, have their own runtimes, but pay Sun for the privelege. If Sun got bought by someone else or changed terms, then this would pose a significant risk to IBM.<br /><br />Why they have to come out and publically say something like that is beyond me. It's obvious, and is a simple explanation for the facts. What's your justification for their actions - IBM *never* thought of this, and simply decided out of the blue to fund full time employees on the project because IBM love open source? This was a strategic decision, plain and simple. It's what you would expect them to do in the situation.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-50234582025277688952010-12-11T12:59:45.000+00:002010-12-11T12:59:45.000+00:00Hi Stephen,
if you decide to withdraw from the J...Hi Stephen, <br /><br />if you decide to withdraw from the JSR-310, will you be able to take the code with you (considering that most parts of the code have your copyright on it) or will Oracle still be able to just "steal" the code and go on?<br /><br />Does JSPA 4.D help here? ("Withdrawal of Contributions due to Change in Announced License Terms.")stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-18864930475367188932010-12-11T12:26:04.000+00:002010-12-11T12:26:04.000+00:00@Mike, You are entitle to your opinion, I just hop...@Mike, You are entitle to your opinion, I just hope you've done as much research as I have to back your claims up. I don't recognise most of your technical summary of the Java platform - by most accounts its the world's most popular language because people realise its the ecosystem thats valuable, not the language itself.Stephen Colebournenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-81960916602830970912010-12-11T11:18:14.000+00:002010-12-11T11:18:14.000+00:00"In hindsight, Sun's choices to avoid ISO..."In hindsight, Sun's choices to avoid ISO and ECMA look reasonable."<br /><br />Who are you kidding? Sun has been acting in bad faith for over a decade: their licenses have been cleverly chosen to give the appearance of open source software, all the while Sun has been creating a thicket of contracts and patents, and all the while they have been threatening anybody who didn't use Java in the way they liked.<br /><br />To put it differently, if Sun had the means of stopping Microsoft, they had the means of stopping anybody they liked, and that made Java closed and proprietary. Furthermore, Sun's entire business had been founded on taking open source software proprietary and McNealy was hobnobbing with Gates and others; lying to the open source community was entirely in character for the company.<br /><br />And Java has suffered enormously from how Sun managed it: the Java language has deteriorated steadily from a simple if limited language to complex bloatware, and the language still is stuck somewhere in the 1980's. The Java libraries are bloated, inelegant, and unoriginal. Java is unsuitable for high performance computing, numerics, graphics, and tons of other important fields. And Java isn't even suitable for serious cross-platform development, except perhaps on the server side (but even C allows cross-platform server side development). Part of the reason is that the JCP allowed a few so-called experts to realize their pipe dreams without much real-world experience and feedback with the resulting libraries; the JCP is a good example of how to design a process that produces bad standards.<br /><br />What's happening now with Oracle/ASF has been in the works for more than a decade. You had to be blind not to see it coming. The only rational response is to drop Java like the hot potato it is and move on to something else. Fortunately, there are plenty of better programming languages around.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-39658605318724339412010-12-11T11:00:08.000+00:002010-12-11T11:00:08.000+00:00@Robert, Yes there will still be investment. Havin...@Robert, Yes there will still be investment. Having Java SE outside the JCP would have been no bad thing as it still would have evolved.<br /><br />@Eduardo, OK I think I see where you're driving.<br /><br />@Eric, Yes this is just the vote to proceed on Java SE 7, but effectively the deed is done. Oracle don't want to change these licenses.<br /><br />@Ben, Showing that it is is IBMs interests is meaningless. You need to find public evidence of a specific IBM plan. If a theory meets the set of publicly known facts, but there is no other evidence to validate the theory, then its a conspiracy theory. One which might be true, but frequently isn't.<br /><br />@Eugene, The answer to your question is in the article.Stephen Colebournenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-62399600052917330932010-12-11T02:10:33.000+00:002010-12-11T02:10:33.000+00:00Stephen,
I've seen you write several times th...Stephen,<br /><br />I've seen you write several times that it would be a bad idea for Apache to sue Sun/Oracle. Can you please explain why?Eugenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-35500014988451036812010-12-10T22:52:55.000+00:002010-12-10T22:52:55.000+00:00Stephen, I don't think that this is a conspira...Stephen, I don't think that this is a conspiracy theory. Everyone knows it would be in IBM's best interest to have a jvm that they control, IBM have been pushing for it for years.<br /><br />An "im feeling lucky" gave me:<br />http://harmony.apache.org/contributors.htmlBennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-37599148364613676272010-12-10T18:18:57.000+00:002010-12-10T18:18:57.000+00:00Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the vo...Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the vote to accept the JSR, with any changes needed occurring once the JSR had been authorized to proceed?<br /><br />With all the troubles in the JCP community((1), (2), (3), and (4)), I thought I would provide some of my thoughts on the JCP, JSRs, RIs, TCKs, etc. <br /><br />I believe:<br />(1) RIs and TCKs should be separate from the JSR and the JCP.<br />(2) JSR Specs (not RI) and Test Specs (not TCKs) should be provided by the JCP.<br />(3) Control of Java (TM) and Patents directly effecting a JSR should be turned over to the JCP. <br />(4) Additional patents in an implementation (not spec) would then be part of the RI/TCK and not limited in compliance of the Specs. So then any patent issues would be against the implementors (not the JCP). <br />(5) Oracle (Sun) should not be given a permanent veto controlling leadership position in the JCP. The leadership role should be elected and voted just like everything else.<br />(6) JCP (or a Validation WG) can be a validating body if they so chose to take up that role. Implementors can provide their implementation for acceptance against the Test Spec (not TCK).<br />(7) Commercial interests addressed would be addressed by individual, groups, and companies with their own implementations, independent of the JCP with their own licensing for their own implementation. The public could then identify which implementation they like best in the market.<br />(8) Oracle/Sun still owns (an open source based) OpenJDK code base implementation.<br /><br />Excert from http://eblog.bresie.com/2010/12/thoughts-on-jcp-jcrs-and-many-things.html forEricBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-56709121511033233742010-12-10T16:53:46.000+00:002010-12-10T16:53:46.000+00:00My comment and highlight points to the economic co...My comment and highlight points to the economic context for all these discussions. At the point of the letter to the Sun, ASF recognized the potential impact of what they were asking and they addressed it in their FAQ. Although history has proven the analysis may not have been complete, I applaud the ASF for taking that into consideration at the time. I am disappointed that most current analysis seems to ignore these angles.Eduardo Pelegri-Lloparthttp://pelegri.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-10717880529566913052010-12-10T13:14:24.000+00:002010-12-10T13:14:24.000+00:00If Java is going to be "closed" and I am...If Java is going to be "closed" and I am fine with that, I don't see community input being taken any less seriously. It just won't be as formal a process. I am hoping that since Oracle wants to make money with Java, then that is going to equate to them putting resources behind it and making it a "better" language going forward.Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-45023578451206366622010-12-10T12:52:03.000+00:002010-12-10T12:52:03.000+00:00> This was a time when Microsoft feared and abu...> This was a time when Microsoft feared and abused Java <br /><br />In retrospect, it's difficult to tell how Microsoft abused Java. They implemented their own GUI libraries (a la SWT), they implemented language/VM extensions (a la closures). And they had (at the time) the highest performing JIT.RichBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-35485965128859245312010-12-10T12:12:42.000+00:002010-12-10T12:12:42.000+00:00@Eduardo, I've avoided commenting on the Googl...@Eduardo, I've avoided commenting on the Google lawsuit beyond saying that they sailed "close to the wind"<br /><br />@Alex, I don't lead JSR-310 via the ASF, I lead it as an individual. Thus the decision I take will be solely mine. I expect to clarify my position in the next week or so.<br /><br />@Ben, The IBM/Intel control theory is a conspiracy theory until there is public information to back it up. Find me the information and I will publish (even if it isn't favourable to the ASF).<br /><br />My view is that the a far better resoluton would have been a public statement by Sun or Oracle to say "we were wrong to day that Java SE is an open specification, so we're withdrawing it from the JCP". Doing so would not have been pleasant, but it would have retained the integrity of the JCP and probably retained the input of the ASF.Stephen Colebournenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-11913076345498750392010-12-10T11:31:22.000+00:002010-12-10T11:31:22.000+00:00While I agree that they *did* fail to meet their l...While I agree that they *did* fail to meet their legal obligations, I do see their side.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, at the time Sun was a bad name in open source. Harmony was created with express purpose to get around Sun's control of the java ecosystem, and was financially manned by IBM, Intel and other major companies who had a direct interest in removing Sun from the Java equation.<br /><br />This was about Sun vs the big guys, and apache was the front for a 100billion+ market cap conglomerates scheme to take Java away from Sun. The only thing I was surprised about was that they didn't fund the lawsuit too.<br /><br />Would you disagree?Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-70090724532017953332010-12-10T09:25:11.000+00:002010-12-10T09:25:11.000+00:00Will you be abandoning the date and time JSR as th...Will you be abandoning the date and time JSR as the ASF are suggesting all Apache members abandon their JSRs?Alex Blewitt (@alblue)http://alblue.bandlem.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-40670696038062638472010-12-10T09:22:36.000+00:002010-12-10T09:22:36.000+00:00Will you be withdrawing from the Java date and tim...Will you be withdrawing from the Java date and time API and leaving the JCP as an Apache member?Alex Blewitt (@alblue)http://alblue.bandlem.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-22672800300116495522010-12-10T06:36:36.000+00:002010-12-10T06:36:36.000+00:00Very informative, Stephen, thanks. This makes me w...Very informative, Stephen, thanks. This makes me wonder if Oracle expected the move by ASF, aware that it potentially splits the server-client markets for Java. ASF projects would now be very wary of implementing the future roadmap, but that would frustrate Oracle's plans too. Unless they're also trying to divide and conquer ASF (and not a few vendors would want that, I suspect)?Sean Dwyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-741750605858169835.post-6953993695190290702010-12-10T05:13:33.000+00:002010-12-10T05:13:33.000+00:00The FAQ to Apache's Open Letter to Sun [1] als...The FAQ to Apache's Open Letter to Sun [1] also provides some historical perspective. One section that I find particularly interesting is [2].<br /><br />[1]http://www.apache.org/jcp/sunopenletterfaq.html<br />[2]http://pelegri.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/from-the-faq-on-apaches-open-letter-to-sun/Eduardo Pelegri-Lloparthttp://pelegri.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com